What Does Carl Have to Do With Zeppelin?

Posted September 14, 2007

I was disappointed by your post on Led Zeppelin (as I mentioned in this blog post
<http://mytwocents.wordpress.com/2007/09/13/led-zeppelin-on-reformation-21/> ). I would be very interested to hear your understanding of how a Christian should relate to immoral elements in our culture. Specifically, I'm wondering how a believer can enjoy something like LZ. Do you have a biblical or theological grid through which you determine that enjoying LZ (for example) is legitimate for the believer, or is it just something you've assumed and to which you've not given much thought? I ask this sincerely, friend. I have no desire to "bait" you.

I understand that you don't know anything about me and that you're not accountable to me in any way. But since you published your thoughts on LZ publicly, and since we are Christian brothers, I'd invite you to explain your thoughts, either on the blog or via personal correspondence (which I will keep as private as you wish).

My own position is probably clear by now. J I believe that the biblical response to worldliness is to expose and reprove it, not to participate in it and promote it (Ephesians 5:11). I have no desire to be unnecessarily rigid or prude. Nevertheless, I believe that what LZ represents, celebrates and pedals is directly contrary to what the Scriptures commend for the Lord's people. The fact that LZ was positively referenced by a publication associated with a group like the ACE was very surprising, and as I've said, disappointing. Even if we don't discuss it further, I'd encourage you to reconsider this matter.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, brother.

Your friend,

Chris

Reformation21 responds:

Dear Chris,

First, let me say thank you -- both for your thoughts and for the gentle and pastoral way in which you express them. I much appreciate you taking the time to write to me in such a manner.

The issue you raise is, in context, involves a number of issues. Here are my thoughts on what I think are the various matters which are relevant.

1. There is the general question of Christianity and non-Christian culture. I think that the Bible certainly seems to grant non-Christian culture a legitimacy -- for example, Paul's respect for the civil magistrate. In practice, Christians do so as well. There is not sin (I don't think) in, say wearing nice clothes or driving a nice car. Of course, for any individual, it could be sinful -- if the money used to buy them means other, higher obligations are not met, or these things become idols. But that is a heart-problem, not intrinsic to the car, the clothes etc. I suppose what I am saying here is that most us just enjoy certain things and that, in principle, is not sinful. I would see it as part of God's goodness, part of `common grace.'

2. Next, there is the question of music. Again, I don't think that music which is not specifically sacred is necessarily sinful. Certainly, the Bible talks of, say, Tubal Cain without implying he is sinful; David plays for Saul and soothes him; and throughout history, Christians have enjoyed making music. My personal conviction: music, like sport or novels or theatre, is not necessarily sinful (again, it can be; but that depends on the specifics).

3. Then there is the question of rock music. I have heard various arguments used against rock over the years. For example, it is argued that its proponents live immoral lives. This is probably true in many cases; but this is not unique to rock -- artists throughout the centuries have had dubious lives; it is no monopoly of rock. Debussy, Wagner etc all had dubious lives. And I think it can be irrelevant to the appreciation of a work of art. I know little of the lifestyle of Vermeer, but I love his paintings. If I discover today that he was a rapist, I would be disappointed; but his paintings would still be beautiful. It may be that some think this argument from immoral lifestyle is a good one; if so, consistency really requires a rejection of all non-Christian culture, from cooking recipes to cars -- for anything produced by someone in rebellion against God (whether expressed in promiscuity or mere respectable self-righteousness) is in such rebellion.

4. This brings me to the specific case of LZ. The case against them would be that their music promotes anti-Christian values. This again is complicated. Derek Thomas frequently puffs Wagner on the blog, recently mentioning that he had seen The Valkyrie performed in New York. This opera contains pagan gods and a scene of incest. Worse than anything I am aware of in a LZ song; yet I rarely come across Christians who attack interest in opera as inconsistent with Christianity. But, granted, there are a couple of LZ tracks which contain crudities. I don't like those tracks and I don't listen to them; and being a Zeppelin fan no more requires me to listen to all their tracks than being a Beethoven fan would require me to regard everything he did as genius.. I do, however, think that, with these one or two exceptions, their work is both of a high technical standard and does not explicitly promote worldly values: Gallow's Pole speaks of the horror faced by a man about to be executed; SInce I've Been Loving You speaks of the anguish a man faces when he suspects his wife is cheating on him; Nobody's Fault But Mine is actually closely based on an old gospel song, speaking of how, if the singer goes to hell, it is his own fault as he has had a godly upbringing and rebelled against it. Each of these surely has a counterpoint in the Bible -- in the psalms, in Hosea, and in the prophets (where the sexual imagery is frequently far more graphic than anything in a rock song). Even the notorious Stairway to Heaven is, if the lyrics are studied, a mixture of portentous sounding gobble-di-gook, old English folk lyrics, and what is arguably a sarcastic take on materialism. Now, I don't want to make out that LZ are believers or that there work is biblical in the strict sense; but the music and lyrics are not, on the whole, the moral nightmare which critics think.

5. This brings me finally to the blog. The agenda here is really pretty eclectic -- to combine tongue-in-cheek fun with serious theological comment. Given that, we are always going to run the risk of getting the balance wrong or dropping a brick of some kind. I guess in this case I may have done the latter for some in the constituency. My intention was certainly not to offend or promote ungodly behaviour. I will try to do better next time.

Anyway, thanks so much for taking the time to comment so pastorally. You have certainly given me much to think about. ALso, I'm copying this to Derek at Ref21 so that he can see your concerns and my response.

With every good wish,

CRT

Hang on There, Trotter

Posted July 24, 2007

I'm a fan of Rodney Trotter and his other personalities. I mostly agree with his points. However, his response, "Nein", to Phil was so weak I just had to write in. Phil makes the point that "explicit" Trinitarian hymns should be used and not just psalmody. Trotter therefore argues that Phil is teaching that , "... they[psalm singers] are implicitly guilty of weakening Trinitarian worship." That is caricature of Phil's point. I'm sure Trotter believes in progressive revelation and though the Trinity is taught in the psalms and the O.T. in general one can't argue that the work of truine God is much clearer and explicit in the N.T. So it is not that psalmody weakens Trinitarian worship, but that explicit Trinitarian hymns can only help. Trotter then mentions three other points that I would like to make comments on, keeping in sync with his numbers:

1. Trotter argues here that the exclusion of singing the Psalms has not strengthened Trinitarian worship, but weakened it. But this is a non sequitur. It seems the point was not that the exclusion of singing the Psalms strengthens Trinitarian worship. It is a singing of *explicit* Trinitarian hymns in conjunction with the psalms that would be a factor of a number of other things that could help.

2. Trotter argues on this point that because someone like Anthanasius memorized the psalms, and the psalms are much greater in their Trinitarian theology than most evangelical hymns that this somehow goes against Phil's point. But Phil explicitly said, "explicit" Trinitarian hymns and he never excluded the psalms. So I'm not sure how Trotter's response is supposed to be interacted with Phil's point. Trotter then closes with the following question: " I wonder, was Athanasius' piety less Trinitarian than that of the typical modern Presbyterian congregation?" This question has nothing to do with the point. Of course Athanasius' piety is probably more Trinitarian than those who practice psalmody. Also remember the "explicit" Trinitarian hymns was only one of four points made by Phil. So, I would say Anthanasius had a much greater Trinitarian piety than typical modern Presbyterian congregation for a number of reasons. Trotter seems to be arguing that it is based so
lely on what we sing, and even with that he caricatures Phil's argument.

3. Finally Trotter ends by making the comment that he believes one hymn in the Trinity Hymnal was written by a Unitarian, and Unitarians could sing many of the hymns with a good conscience. My response is, "So what?". Unitarians could sing many of the psalms in good conscience. Is the hymn written by a Unitarian biblical, sound in theology, and God glorifying? No one would argue that every hymn in the Trinity Hymnal is explicitly Trinitarian, nor are they all required to be. Trotter ends with this quote: "If hymn singing can help solve the problem, Western hymn writers need to do a whole lot better than they have done." Now, I can agree that hymn writers in general could do a whole lot better, however I also think there are a number of "explicit" Trinitarian hymns that can be sung now which would help as Phil stated. However, the problem cannot be solved by hymn or psalmody alone. Phil offered more than this one point and I think they all could play a role in
improving our Trinitarian worship.

-R. Brown

Aaargh!!!

Once again, I'm disappointed in your bog . . . I attempted to access an exciting web page on pirates www.anewkindofpirate.org and was told that it did not exist. I would recommend a greater measure of quality control over the content! Could you recommend another webpage on pirates?
-G. Bierd

Ref21 responds:

In our non-stop efforts designed to keep our blog readers happy, healthy, and up-to-date on all things pirate, we would point you in the direction of this outstanding resource:

www.piratesinfo.com

We would strongly endorse the authentic, stylish, and historically accurate costume sold here:

PT Forsyth

Posted January 19, 2007

Carl's lately quoted and recommended P T Forsyth - where would one best start with his writing?
-Rosemary G.

Reformation21 responds:
I would recommend you start with Positive Preaching and the Modern Mind and also The Cruciality of the Cross (perhaps the latter first).

On Heavydentialism

Posted January 16, 2007

Dear Rodney Trotter/Nicholas 'Don't Call Me Nicky!' Mauss,

Thank you for bringing to my attention the great work of St. Osiander of Osbourne, (who incidentally was widely known for celebrating the Lord's Day primarily at night, evening to morning, without candlelight, alongside his early Session brothers, Sts. Iommi, Butler, and Ward, creating a phenomenon known equally as the "Dark" or "Black" Sabbath).

However, I must object to his entitling of his pivotal work on 'heavydentialism', Summa Metallica. As any good rock apologist can tell you, when the great Danish apologist Lars Ulrich von Gentofte came together with Sir James Hetfield, they had a great deal to say, both rhythmically AND melodically about the topic of rock. They were yet to write some of their pivotal works, however, as the real wonder of wonders happened when the formally educated Bach afficionado, Clifford Burton joined the group. The Scottish rock apologist Kirk of Hammett added even more to their sound with his very rhythmic musings. While Summa Metallica is surely correct in that volume played a large part in these great contributors to rock apologetics, when one discovers that the volume knob also turns to the left, one can be treated to a wonderful mix of music...provided one is listening before the musical liberalism of the 90's and beyond set in with the immature scribblings of Jason Newsted.

-Chris D.

Bah! Humbug!

I am sure that some English Puritan or Scottish Presbyterian would point out to Jeremy Smith that he could have avoided all grief the Clinton Christmas parade had refrained from participating in such a pagan event. However it will not be I, who loves most everything Christmas. In fact, one of the primary reasons my wife and I decided not to make a short trip was that we did not want to miss our hometown Christmas parade. Christmas parades are one of the charms of small town living. It is another of those activities that give small towns a sense of community. Ours was broadcast live on cable TV and will be replayed every day through Christmas Eve. I have already seen myself on the tape so I doubt I will watch it anymore.So to this Christmas parade bashing I say, "Bah! Humbug" and may your sleep be tormented with ghosts.

One of my only complaints about our parade was that so little candy was thrown. Not even Santa when he arrived in a utility truck bucket, threw, much candy. But I like it when people throw good things, and I have the challenge of catching or moving quickly to grasp the goodie and the feeling of returning successful from the hunt, a hero to women and children. On of my favorite times watching the local high school football team this year was scrambling for and grabbing a little football which I gave to a certain child whom Jeremy knows. (The only thing I did not like about it was that it was provided by what JT and Dave call 'the paht-nu-ship" which has a pot of money from which a former attorney general dispenses favors, but I decided that, like meat at the butcher shop in Corinth it did not matter from where the football came, since it was a just a football no matter its provider.) Now with regard to the candy, I would prefer that instead of peppermint, the paraders might throw Hershey's Kisses, or their little candy bars that are wrapped in Christmas foil, or even those tiny boxes of Whitman's samplers that come out at Christmas. So I say, "Let us have candy!" (One of the nice things about being a low church Protestant is that we don't do the repentance thing during Advent, so we are free to enjoy all the holiday fare before Christmas Day.)

Then the poor little "Misses" came in for heavy criticism. We had so many "Misses" in our small town parade that I was sure the next car would hold "Miss Not Too Ugly." But, in my view, the criticism comes from the writer's having lived so long up north that he does not understand or appreciate Southern civilization, particularly not its Mississippi incarnation. Southerners admire feminine beauty. My experience is that there are more pretty women per capita in the South in general and Mississippi in particular than anywhere else. And for a long while, when people could still recognize beauty and grace, the South had a near monopoly on Miss America. Southerners have a tradition of mothers teaching their daughters to present themselves at their best in public. This includes their physical appearance. Alas, this seems to be in decline as we see so many women and girls now who do not how to dress - appropriately for the circumstance or with sufficient modesty - so as to enhance their beauty. (On my reading this kind of thing is approved in the Song of Solomon, which ain't about Christ and the Church, but about a man and a woman in the covenant community.) Moreover, a part of learning how to present oneself was learning how to sit, stand, and walk like a lady - not like a man, mind you, but like a woman who knows but does not flaunt her attractiveness). Another aspect of learning how to present oneself was learning manners - how to set a table with china and crystal and silver, how to speak to an older person, how to act around a male. Southerners have a certain connectedness with British culture, that Yankees lack. Indeed about the only thing we have against the Brits is that they did not come in on our side and help us achieve our independence and preserve our culture. Be that as it may, this appreciation for British ways has something to do with the Southern desire for women to know how to present themselves. Now our pageants and Misses have their roots in the tradition of training young girls about the proper presentation of themselves, including how to display their beauty and charm. That there should be contests and rewards for learning such things is entirely natural. So, unlike Scrooge Smith, I will smile and mildly clap at next year's Christmas parade when the 2007 Miss Pulp Wood comes down the street seated on the back of a convertible.
BTW, I think Luther, unlike Calvin, could well be seen riding in the back of a pick-up throwing candy to the children. He might have a stein of beer in one hand, which would limit him to throwing with one hand, but I think he would be having a good time, laughing all the way.

As to the rest I will instruct when I come.

Some Appreciation for Carl (and Ref21)

Calvin Intolerant?

Posted 12-1-06

Does Calvin's practice in Geneva contradict, in the opinionof any of you, his overall teaching on Christian liberty as expressed in the Institutes? Without being able to cite specifics, I have recollections of dancing being forbidden, dislike of drama, etc. In this sense, was Calvin simply following a long-standing medieval tradition of intolerance in spite of the Christian liberty he espouses regarding things indifferent . .  . And, I have respect for both Dr. Thomas and Dr. Trueman for their very different tastes in music. Perhaps neither of them will appreciate that my sympathies are for both classic rock and for high culture.
- C. Dolinsek

Reformation21 responds:

First, assure the writer of my sympathy for his own cultural eclecticism. Shakespeare is simply the best; and even I occasionally listen to the odd bit of classical (indeed, I own half the Ring cycle, a couple of Mozart operas and various other bits and bobs; not a patch on `WHo's Next?' or Led Zeppelin IV, but not bad on the whole.).

James Boice on Death

The Didache: Not all there

What's Hell Got to Do With It?

A Man for All Sizes

Posted 8/31/06

Editor's Note: Several months ago, Carl Trueman had some things to say about conferences and their relative importance in a series of blogs (click here for a sample). Part of his critique included observations about the importance of the local church (regardless of size). What follows is a report from one such church:

Carl's taken a lot of ribbing (most well-deserved) about his “conference" blogging. But, I want you to know that he practices what he preaches. He came to a small church, in a small town, with nobody famous and gave an incredibly inspired message. Carl spoke about Elisha and the Shunammite women and death as a boundary. During that service a dear member who had been diagnosed with a brain tumor 4 days before crossed the boundary to be with the Lord. The family was at church listening to Carl's message from the Word at that time. They went home to find out the news. His message had a great impact on the funeral the next week, the congregation, and most particularly some of the unbelieving family that heard Carl's message. It's hard to believe a National Conference could replace that touching moment in time.

Again, I'm thankful for Reformation 21 - most particularly the godly men behind Ref 21. I know there is a lot of joking - and it is wonderful and entertaining. There is also a lot of depth and service to our Lord. Thank you again on many levels!